Source: William Joy
Article Compilation: Big Pliers, PANews

Recently, Cobo co-founder Shenyu and Jiling Technology founder Jin Ming conducted an in-depth conversation on AI, entrepreneurship, investment, Bitcoin, Web 3, Agents, and life missions.

Shenyu is an early participant in the crypto industry, having been involved in cryptocurrencies since 2011. He is one of the earliest Bitcoin advocates and participants in China. Jin Ming, on the other hand, is a former member of the Chinese Freediving National Team and the founder of Jiling Technology. He has long been focused on the research and commercial application of video AI technology and has received investment from institutions such as Alibaba, Yunfeng Fund, and Megvii Technology.

From the sense of mission of entrepreneurs to the relationship between humans and technology in the AI era; from freediving and death anxiety to investment frameworks and asset allocation; and then to BTC, RWA, Agents, and the future of Ethereum, the two engaged in an in-depth discussion revolving around technology, capital, and individual life experiences.

Shenyu believes that one of the most important changes brought by AI is a significant reduction in the cost from idea to execution. In the past, an idea might have remained merely a thought due to the high cost of implementation. Today, AI is compressing and structuring a vast amount of human knowledge and handing over execution capabilities to individuals at an extremely low cost. As a result of technological development, human will has become more crucial. However, he also admitted that while AI has opened up many possibilities, it has not yet found something large enough and systematic. He still defines himself as a Builder, believing that "living is to some extent about your existence making the possibilities of the world a little more diverse."

This Builder mindset also permeates his investment philosophy. Shenyu believes that good assets do not need to rely on continuous narratives. Rather than widespread diversification, he prefers to focus on a few assets that he truly understands because human energy is limited, and what truly matters is understanding the underlying logic of the assets.

In the next stage of Web 3, the key direction Shenyu is observing is Agents. He believes that the ecosystem, such as Ethereum, may not primarily be used by humans in the future but by Agents.

Below is the full interview, compiled by PANews:

In the AI Era, Human Will Is Becoming More Important

Jin Ming: The last time you participated in an interview was ten years ago, back in 2017. At that time, you had a very classic quote: "So much money, I don't know how to spend it all at once."

GeneFish: Now knows how to spend. In fact, fundamentally, I think human willpower is becoming more and more important. With the arrival of the AI era, many things that used to require a lot of time and cost to accomplish can now be done quickly as long as you have an idea. This change is huge.

Exactly. You see, fundamentally, human willpower is becoming more and more important. In the AI era, many tasks that used to require a lot of execution time or were considered very difficult can now be done as soon as you have an idea. This change is significant. Things that we might have found hard to imagine ten or twenty years ago can now be delivered easily. Things that we couldn't even dream of ten or twenty years ago can now be quickly delivered as long as there is an idea, and the backend execution cost has been greatly reduced, allowing many things to be delivered quickly.

King Ming: It's about going from an idea to the final implementation.

GeneFish: Yes. In the past, you had a seed, you had a dream, but it might have remained just a dream forever. Now, the backend costs have decreased rapidly, and with AI compressing and structuring a lot of human knowledge, you can call upon these capabilities at a low cost.

It's like having a seed at home that can quickly take root. In the past, having a seed and a dream might have just been a dream. Now, the backend costs have decreased rapidly, and with AI compressing a lot of human knowledge, you can easily access that at a low cost. I feel like it has opened up a lot of possibilities. So I feel that AI has opened up a lot of possibilities.

From a Sense of Mission to Confusion, Builders are Also Seeking Answers

King Ming: Are you satisfied with your current state of life? Do you feel happy and fulfilled every day?

GeneFish: It's okay, but there is still some confusion. Unlike the early days of entrepreneurship, back then the sense of mission was very strong. Now, I've entered a state of chaos: I see that AI has opened up many possibilities, feeling that this is the best era, but I haven't seen a very clear path. Whether it's a sense of mission or a specific business path, I still haven't fully figured it out. So now, it's more about exploration and self-improvement.

King Ming: How did you define your sense of mission when you first started your business?

Fish: When you saw a window of opportunity back then, you would feel a strong urge to create. You would feel that if this thing is not done, you will definitely regret it for the rest of your life. It's as if a force is pushing you, and you can't escape from it, so you come out and do it.

Jinming: At that time, the huge demand you saw was for mining?

Fish: Actually, it started in 2013, and the core issue was computing power. At that time, mining started in the United States, and later it began to migrate to China. When China first started to make ASIC mining machines, the machines actually needed to connect to U.S. mining pools to mine. There were two main issues: first, the network issue, as there were latency and packet loss in the international Internet, which led to very poor mining efficiency; second, the settlement method of the entire mining industry at that time was not reasonable. So what we did was to solve these two problems.

Essentially, you see a market vacuum, a niche market, where there are some needs that have not been fully met, and you happen to have the ability to meet them. At this point, a very strong impulse arises to build this thing.

Jinming: After so long brewing time, what do you think is your mission now?

Fish: I still think I need to do something. I have always defined myself as a Builder. Since the AI era, I have also created many small tools and dashboards, but I have not yet found that truly large and systematic thing, so I am still observing.

Actually, in the later stages of entrepreneurship, when you are on the front line and have done a lot of things, you will have a lot of confusion and perplexity. So you have to replenish a large amount of knowledge from human history: how did similar things happen in the past? How did philosophers think? All these things will come back to influence you. At this moment, you can see many possible futures unfolding, but you have not found that specific path yet.

In Search of a Sense of Life Mission

Jinming: When I shared yesterday, I talked about purpose awareness, which is a sense of life purpose. I likened it to a scale.

Many people initially want to create big things, hoping to leave a legacy; and on the other end of the scale, there is experience and happiness, with many young people feeling that life is about pursuing happiness. If you put it on this scale, where are you now?

Godfish: I don't have any particular desire to leave anything behind, nor do I seek specific experiential sensations. I have also used AI to deconstruct many psychoanalytical things, but fundamentally, I am someone driven to construct from within. I just want to build something. When something is created, I feel great. I hope to present something because I believe that living is to some extent about your existence, making the possibilities of this world a little richer.

Kim Ming: This is actually quite leftist, very skewed towards legacy. In psychological research, there is a very interesting phenomenon that many people hope to become a Builder. And a potential psychological characteristic of a Builder is that they are prone to anxiety. Because your life purpose is constantly to build. When you are not actively moving forward, when you are not building, you tend to enter an anxious state. Have you experienced this state? How do you usually deal with it?

Godfish: Definitely to some extent, but now I can switch. I have had some ways to let myself empty out since I was young, such as raising animals and engaging in hobbies. So basically, every week I enter this state. You have to allow yourself to empty out. How do you deal with fear when you are diving?

Redefining Fear at the Limit

Kim Ming: When you hold your breath, your body will constantly send you signals. At this moment, it is actually a confrontation between reason and emotion. I think the most straightforward analogy is that free diving is actually very similar to a spiritual process. First, you have to enter the water with a state of "knowing the outcome." You have to constantly tell yourself: you are safe.

The human brain is actually very clever. It is controlled by the autonomic nervous system. For example, it is very difficult to truly suffocate oneself on land. When you hold your breath to the limit, the brain may experience a brief blackout, also known as a BO, entering a state of brief shock. After about ten seconds, the airway will reopen, and the person will naturally inhale.

But why might a person die underwater as a result? It's because after losing consciousness underwater, when the airway reopens, what is inhaled is not air but water. So ultimately, it may lead to drowning. That's why free diving training must always have a buddy, a training partner.

However, from another perspective, it is also a very good spiritual process. You will constantly give yourself complete positive psychological suggestions: what you are doing now is meditation, what you are entering is a state of flow; you are healthy, you are safe; your brain is very intelligent.

And no one could hold their breath to the limit from the beginning. At the start, after ten sessions, two months, three months, most people might only be able to reach about 50% of their limit. As training progresses, they slowly approach 70%, 80%, and even 90%. Many times, what holds back newcomers from diving deeper is not their physical limit but rather their unfamiliarity with their own bodies. As you become more and more familiar with your body, you will increasingly trust yourself and get closer to your limit. So the whole process is not as much of a struggle as imagined; many times, it is actually very peaceful.

Godfish: Doesn't this process help you overcome the fear of death? Or rather, does it make you confront death more directly?

Jinming: That's a great question. I feel that after long-term freediving or breath-holding training, my fear of death has indeed significantly decreased. I haven't really thought seriously about why. When I first held my breath or during the first few training sessions, I still had a fear of death, but now it's completely gone. Even in daily life, when I joke with my parents, I would say that I feel my life experience has been very fulfilling and rich. Even if something unexpected happens tomorrow and I'm gone, I would still feel very happy. In the past, I used to think that of course, the longer I live, the better, and death is a very regretful thing. But now I'm no longer so afraid of it. Are you afraid?

Godfish: I think at some level there is still anxiety. Or, onlookers might tell me, and my Agent partner would tell me, that I actually have death anxiety.

AI Agent Is Becoming the New Information Gateway

Jinming: What are your channels for collecting information now?

Godfish: Almost all through AI. I open my eyes, and AI will tell me that it has read everything from yesterday for me. Now I have three AI Agents. One Agent is tool-rational, it will tell you what to do; one is more feminine, softer, and will go find something deep in your heart; and there is one that combines what you did yesterday, tells you what blind spots were observed.

For example, it might tell you: in history, there's a good book, and in a certain chapter, the issue being discussed is something people in the past also encountered, and it is very relevant to your current state. Do you want to spend 15 minutes looking at that chapter? Then three things will pop up, and you can just go and check them out.

In addition, I also have a note-taking system. They use an evolutionary approach to relate things I've been interested in to my life. In a sense, my attention is like a "god," determining which views or propositions can survive. Every day, AI will "crossbreed" a batch of new things, then select one to tell me: here's an article you can read. So now I hardly read things directly. There are also some daily briefings and long articles selected by AI, processed by AI first, and then handed to me. I usually quickly compress it into a PPT to view.

Building an Investment Framework Starting from DeFi

Jinming: But this method is more about dealing with existing information. There is a lot of real-time information happening, such as a conflict that just occurred a second ago, which AI captures, but it may not be as timely.

Legendary Fish: I don't care. The most important information will find you on its own, and you will definitely see it. I don't do such short-term trades either. I realized very early on that I don't have a talent for that. Making some simple decisions is easier, but if it's a bit long-term, I might be more suitable.

I actually started investing after playing with DeFi. DeFi essentially helped me relive my investment history. We've seen how traditional finance was invented all the way from the "Underground Fed," going through the two hundred years of development. In this process, you will have many questions, and then you'll go back to fill in the history and financial knowledge gaps. It was only at this point that I started investing seriously.

I was just relatively lucky on day one, somehow got hold of some decent methodologies, and took a not-so-wrong path. But it was only after going through the DeFi wave that I started to build my own knowledge structure and investment framework. Before this, I didn't actually have a complete investment framework.

Jinming: So, you didn't really form an investment framework during your long mining period.

Legendary Fish: At that time, I didn't even think of myself as investing. It was just a vague intuition: I should hold some Bitcoin, with a bit of portfolio management thinking.

I have an ISTJ personality, and many things are abstracted in the practical process. I first form some frameworks, then train my intuition; in the process, many new questions arise, leading to further abstracting of new frameworks. The investment framework slowly took shape in this way.

Rethinking Financial Products from DeFi to RWA

Jinming: Generally, very few people who participate in DeFi actually form an investment framework. This is because DeFi is often fundamentally about "yield farming," which is completely different from investing.

Shenyu: But what you need to look at is what these financial products themselves are actually providing, and how they are meeting market demands. They are essentially building a financial market from 0 to 1 on-chain. I focus on this process, not on arbitrage or mining within DeFi, which I think is more muscle memory, more intuitive.

But in this process, you accumulate a lot of experiences, which are very valuable; at the same time, you also accumulate many questions, which are equally valuable. You may not initially understand why everyone needs these things, but once you figure it out and look back at history, many things start to connect.

Jinming: So this round of on-chain Real World Assets (RWA), including bringing US stocks on-chain, is like extending the financial product understanding you formed in DeFi to traditional finance.

Shenyu: Yes, it's like they're putting US stocks in front of you again, and you have to understand the logic behind US stocks.

Jinming: But ten years ago when you were mining, you never thought about holding US stocks, right?

Shenyu: Even when others asked me to borrow money to speculate in US stocks, I didn't really understand it at the time. I can only say I was lucky, I happened to take a not-too-wrong path. Back then, I was actually quite clueless and didn't understand. Afterwards, I had many questions and luckily AI came along; my learning speed suddenly became very fast, able to quickly skim through a lot of books and materials, then understand why these things were happening.

Good Assets Don't Need to Keep Searching for New Narratives

Jinming: You've been involved with Bitcoin for over a decade. Has your view of BTC changed?

Shenyu: No change, it's still digital gold. In this world, assets you can hold without the need for intermediaries are rare, as almost all other assets are wrapped in one, two, or even three layers of intermediaries.

Jinming: There are quite a few pessimistic people among our group members now.

Whale: The value of BTC truly shines in extreme situations. So, it's normal for people not to care about it when the market is booming.

Jinming: Do you agree with the view that BTC has significantly enhanced individual sovereignty based on classical liberalist ideals?

Whale: A core aspect of individual sovereignty is the ability to control assets. AI has strengthened this ability, and BTC is a key asset in the way individuals handle their assets. Both of these things are very important.

Jinming: I have some friends around me who were early believers in BTC and had strong faith. However, after this cycle, many people seem to struggle to see a new narrative.

Whale: A good asset doesn't need a narrative and, in fact, the longer it lasts, the more it proves certain things.

Jinming: I think in this Web 3 cycle, there are two key narratives. One is the full asset arbitrage by Ethena, and the other is bringing real-world assets (RWA) onto the blockchain. However, both of these are still in their early stages and have not fully matured.

Instead, I believe that the killer To C (consumer-facing) applications of Web3 have not emerged yet. I'm not talking about products used by investors and traders today, but products that ordinary consumers can use just like they use WeChat – products that can truly change people's way of life. I don't think that has appeared yet.

Whale: I've long held the view that ecosystems like Ethereum may not necessarily be for human use in the future but for Agents' use. It might ultimately be a network where humans are not necessarily the best end-users. Many times, when we use on-chain products now, the demands on users' expertise and security awareness are too high. The barrier is still quite high if humans become direct end-users. However, if Agents become the middleware, it might present a better way.

Jinming: If in the future, the main users on Ethereum, Solana, etc., are Agents, then the entire Agent ecosystem is rapidly evolving. How do you see the future of these Ethereum and Solana ecosystems?

Whale: Right now, I am observing a point: Whether Agent can achieve widespread adoption in an ecosystem like Ethereum. If this point indeed arrives, it could be a turning point.

Jin Ming: I think Web 3 actually has a significantly undervalued aspect. From 1.0, 2.0 to 3.0, "readable, writable, ownable," fundamentally may change the way social wealth is distributed. If we place finance in this framework, my ideal Web 3 finance is actually like this: Today, when a Chinese person participates in A-shares, trades through trading software, a large portion of the transaction fee ultimately belongs to platforms like Oriental Fortune and Tonghuashun, rather than the participants themselves.

However, one of the core values of Web 3 is that participants can simultaneously become owners of the benefits. For example, when you engage in trading on Binance, Hyperliquid, the platform earns fees from your trades, and as an ecosystem participant, you may also share the value brought by the platform's growth through tokens, buybacks, and other means. You are both a participant and a shareholder. In the Web 1.0, Web 2.0 era, you were more of a participant; in Web 3, you may potentially become both a participant and a shareholder. I think this is actually one of the core values of Web 3, and it shouldn't only happen on-chain.

In theory, in the future, every money-related field worldwide may adopt this model: you are both a participant, receive rewards, and also enjoy the dividends of the ecosystem's development. However, currently, this mechanism has not been widely applied outside of Web 3.

Whale: I think it will happen in the future. For example, data in the AI era may naturally create a similar mechanism. The possibility of technological diffusion has already been opened. When it can be widely adopted, many issues need to be addressed, and it will take time. But the potential is already there. We are already seeing successful demos in some edge scenarios; it's just that mass adoption has not yet occurred.

Gold or BTC?

Jin Ming: How do you view gold?

Whale: I don't pay much attention to these. Bitcoin is the better gold.

Jin Ming: I think the common point between the two is consensus, but the groups forming the consensus are different. Bitcoin has formed part of its consensus at the sovereign individual level, while gold has formed a stronger consensus at the sovereign state, especially central bank level. Global central banks are still continuously buying gold.

Whale: Essentially, it can be divided into two camps. One camp is the "Digital Currency + AI" represented by Bitcoin, and the other camp is the traditional "Gold + Industrial Manufacturing." If we look at it on a spectrum, we may lean a bit more towards the left.

Jinming: Do you remember James Tobin's Nobel Prize-related theory? According to this view, we can buy both Bitcoin and gold. Because the two assets exhibit positive correlation in certain cycles, but over the past year, they have even shown a certain degree of negative correlation. If you want to enjoy the so-called "free lunch" of the financial market and achieve a well-diversified portfolio, you should hold more assets with low or even negative correlation. What do you think?

Whale: I don't think there are truly negatively correlated assets. While many assets are indeed diversified under normal circumstances and have relatively low correlation, they all have a few common core constraints. When those core market variables undergo systemic changes and the entire market enters an extreme situation, almost all assets tend to behave similarly.

Jinming: But there are also counterexamples. For instance, oil and many credit-related assets are sometimes inversely related. US Treasuries also often exhibit an inverse relationship with credit assets.

Whale: However, there are also instances of both US Treasuries and stocks plummeting. So I believe what truly needs to be resilient against are the most extreme scenarios. Many times you may think two assets are negatively correlated, but in the most extreme scenario, it may not actually protect you. Therefore, I am not a typical advocate of diversification but rather a proponent of concentration. Since you can't possibly understand so many things, and human energy is limited. Since the underlying logic is not fully understood, I prefer to concentrate my assets in a few things that I truly comprehend.

Ultimately, Investment is a Combination of Character, Cognition, and Position Management

Jinming: I find this point very interesting. I think there are some things that you don't necessarily need to fully understand. For example, gold has already formed a long-term consensus in many sovereign central banks, even if you don’t study it. Since this consensus exists, by holding it long-term, you can also consider it as part of a well-diversified portfolio.

Whale: But it can affect your mentality when it drops. So, don't let these things affect your mindset. The simplest way is to not hold it. When Bitcoin drops, you won't panic, you won't experience too much psychological fluctuation. But the premise is that you must have faith. And to truly have this faith, you must do a lot of groundwork.

Jin Ming: For ordinary people, the higher barrier to entry may still be because most people are not professional investors. Position management, drawdown control, including mindset management, they find it difficult to truly remain calm.

Shen Yu: Is this also related to training? For sports like free diving, is it primarily trained, or is it related to a person's innate personality?

Jin Ming: I think it may be both. I believe that sports may become a necessity for many people in the future. Many people will pay more and more attention to health, and then focus on a certain sport, gradually becoming a kind of "athlete" in a sense. It will bring a sense of accomplishment and make you happier.

When these things are combined, it is actually a rather complete trading lifestyle. Adding in your own lifestyle later, the Bitcoin retracement may actually be a better buying opportunity for Class A investors. For example, when Bitcoin is at $120,000, you may find it hard to buy, and I wouldn't particularly want to accumulate above $100,000 myself. Because I feel it did not give me an opportunity. If it falls below $90,000, I would see it as an opportunity. Buying at $90,000, $80,000, $70,000, $60,000, buying slowly. Because I still have long-term confidence.

Is AI a Cycle or the "Water, Electricity, and Coal" of a New Era?

Jin Ming: From the current logic, I think calling AI a pure cyclical stock is inaccurate. I believe that AI will definitely become the most important productivity of the next era and replace a lot of what runs the world today. This change may be even bigger than the Industrial Revolution. If this assumption holds true, then AI is not a simple cycle, but the "water, electricity, and coal" of a new era. Of course, if this assumption does not hold, then you can completely treat it as a cycle. The key lies in your judgment of this assumption itself.

Shen Yu: But if you look at history, many things are actually isomorphic. During the 2000 Internet bubble, everyone also thought the Internet was the future. At that time, network infrastructure was key, and everyone went to buy Cisco. Cisco later went through a long period of valuation digestion. Could a similar situation happen?

Jin Ming: All I can say is that everything has a probability. But I believe that if the AI era truly arrives in the future, the demand for storage will be enormous. Right now, we are mainly dealing with conversational robots, along with some programming robots. But in the future, the truly massive storage demand may come from embodied intelligence, that is, real robots. Today, we still don't have truly embodied intelligent robots in our homes, and robot applications in the workplace are still mainly concentrated in a few factories. A large number of white-collar office settings have not yet been truly replaced.

Furthermore, the future human brain may also require more external storage. For example, a person's brain may have multiple backups, or they may have additional "external brain" through a brain-machine interface. These needs have not truly materialized today. However, if the AI era does arrive, the demand for space will be enormous. So, the key question comes back to one assumption: Do you believe that the AI era will definitely come? I believe it will come. Moreover, the idea of robots is no longer a completely wild assumption. Looking down the chain of human technological development today, we can already see the possibility of massive production.

How to Select Core Assets?

Fish: This brings us back to the trading lifestyle. Your personality preferences will influence what kind of investment philosophy and framework you choose, ultimately affecting your position management and mindset management.

Jinming: Indeed, everyone is quite different. But those who truly excel are definitely able to develop their own set of core things that belong to them and suit them. This includes what you just mentioned as T 0 level assets, and its definition is actually different. In my framework, what you consider a T 0 level asset may only be classified as T 2 or T 3 because it may still be a very cutting-edge thing.

Fish: Our approach can be roughly divided into three layers. The first layer, we may first notice an anomaly: this company seems a bit peculiar. We won't start with a heavy position. We may buy no more than 2% at the beginning, sometimes even just a fraction of a percent, as an observation position. Then we'll spend time and effort understanding it. If we think its logic is correct, we may upgrade it once again, from a fraction of a percent to single-digit percentage asset allocation, but generally not exceeding 10%.

Transitioning from around 10% to around 20% of core assets actually requires a leap of "faith." Because once you truly enter the core position, it relies not only on fundamentals and logical deduction but also requires something akin to faith. You need to see a sufficiently large vision that can support a huge TAM (Total Addressable Market), while also having very good business logic and a true key inflection point.

So, to summarize, our current core framework is more focused on: Monopoly + Growth. For the most core asset, its TAM must be particularly large, requiring a sufficiently grand vision to drive it. Otherwise, it's impossible to include it in the most core asset allocation.

Jinming: Based on your framework, what do you currently consider the most core asset?

Fisherman: Currently, the main assets we have included are Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Tesla. SpaceX is still in the timing and observation stage and has not been upgraded yet. Ethereum is still in there, but we have recently discussed whether to move Ethereum down from this tier.

Jinming: Is there also an issue of identity here? I remember a year ago when you cleared out Ethereum, I said in the group chat that "I slept better," and didn't you also say you slept better at that time?

Fisherman: Yes, because we stopped mining DeFi. But the core logic we see now is that Agent might run on Ethereum in the future. Of course, this logic has not been falsified yet.

Jinming: But why can't Agent run on Base? Why can't it run on Solana?

Fisherman: It can run on both. But Ethereum's ecosystem may be a better match. It has a lot of decentralized infrastructure at its core. Although these things may not have been truly implemented in the past, the foundation is also trying to move in this direction. For example, creating a registry and ecosystem infrastructure around Agent. Although nothing substantial has been achieved at the moment, some work has been done, which has also given the market some hope.

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